From: DKaplan888@aol.com 
Take a look at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126695123 
and, for that matter, all three ancient coins which "razan@nativesoil.com" is currently selling on e-Bay. 
A little too much of a coincidence, that all three give me the same feeling. 
I have e-mailed him about my concerns.  If someone else shares my concerns,  maybe you could e-mail him as well.  It might go over better if he hears from more than one person. 

Betreff:         Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
 Datum:         Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:40:42 -0700 
    Von:         "Al DeCrescenzo" <alde@tscnet.com> 
    An:         <DKaplan888@aol.com>, <moneta-l@onelist.com> 

 From: "Al DeCrescenzo" <alde@tscnet.com> 
Looks ok to me, but I have only been collecting for a bit over a year. Could you share your concerns with the less experienced collectors? What does not look right? 
Thanks, Al 
 

Betreff:         Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
 Datum:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:18:10 +0300 
    Von:         "Dr Gyula Petranyi" <petranyi@cytanet.com.cy> 
    An:         <moneta-l@onelist.com> 

From: "Dr Gyula Petranyi" <petranyi@cytanet.com.cy> 
I also have some concern but I am not a specialist in those fields. Neither the dealer who transliterated the name of Alexander on one of them in a form that nobody could recognise. Some letters are non-standard, I admit. BTW, this is the second time that I find coin dealers on eBay who cannot read Greek letters but sell Greek coins. In Hungary (where Latin characters are used) we learnt Greek letters at school, at least a few in maths but the whole alphabet was given in our schoolbooks. Why aren't they bothered at least to decipher the legends? I stress, coin dealers, not one-time 'ancient-midevil (!) very old last century coin' selling people. 
Dr. Gyula Petranyi  <petranyi@cytanet.com.cy> 
 

Betreff:             Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
     Datum:             Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:27:29 -0700 
       Von:             "Dave Welsh" <dwelsh@deltanet.com> 
        An:             <DKaplan888@aol.com>, <moneta-l@onelist.com> 

From: "Dave Welsh" <dwelsh@deltanet.com> 
> From: DKaplan888@aol.com 
> Take a look at  http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126695123 
>  and, for that matter, all three ancient coins which "razan@nativesoil.com" is currently selling on e-Bay. 

Agree with your concerns. 

> A little too much of a coincidence, that all three give me the same feeling. 

The Faustina is as ***** as a 3 dollar bill. 

> I have e-mailed him about my concerns.  If someone else shares my concerns, 
> maybe you could e-mail him as well.  It might go over better if he hears from more than one person. 

Been there. done that. 
Dave Welsh 
dwelsh@deltanet.com 
 
 

Betreff:         Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
 Datum:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:15:30 EDT 
    Von:         DKingEd@aol.com 
    An:         moneta-l@onelist.com 

In a message dated 99-07-05 03:37:27 EDT, you write: 

<< The Faustina is as ***** as a 3 dollar bill. >> 

      I, too, would be interested in knowing from the more experienced collectors just what it is about these coins that makes them seem fake.  I don't doubt that they are, I just can't see it for myself.  The Faustina looks suspiciously clean to me, but then I'm not used to dealing with real coins in EF condition, so any of them might look clean. 
Thanks, 
David King 
 

Betreff:         Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
 Datum:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:00:08 EDT 
    Von:         DKaplan888@aol.com 
    An:         moneta-l@onelist.com 

 In a message dated 7/5/99 12:53:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alde@tscnet.com 
writes: 

> Could you share your concerns with the less experienced collectors? What  does not look right? 
> 
>  Thanks, Al 
> 
I hate to say something like this, but EXPERIENCE is the best way to tell fakes.  Handling many of the real thing, knowing what the real ones look like.  In person, the flan is as important (or even more important) than the design. 

Having said that, I'll start with the Alexander tet. ( http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126695123)  The design is strangely flat, and the style is bizarre.  A little caution is advised here, because Alexander tets were produced in many different places over hundreds of years, hence in many different styles.  Nonetheless, I am confident in condemning this piece on the basis of style alone -- no real Alexanders looked like that.  For example, look at the border on the reverse -- a solid thin line.   This coin was struck from modern dies.  For a real one to compare it to, look at http://members.aol.com/dkaplan888/alex.htm. 
(By the way, while you are there, use the RETURN TO MAIN PAGE key to check out my website -- shameless plug :-) 
The Faustina is all wrong because of the style again.  Look at the eye -- it is in the wrong era -- it belongs on Constantine.  The lettering is ridiculous.  Romans were damn good at lettering -- no self-respecting Celator would crowd the letters the way they are on the obverse right.  Again this coin was struck from modern dies. 
The Alexander "Obol" is a different story.  It too is fake, but it is a cast of a real coin.  I can tell it is cast because the surfaces are fuzzy, soapy and pockmarked.  The rims on the obverse are raised in a strange way that would never appear on a real coin of the period.  If I had the coin in my hands I would look first at the rims -- there would be obvious file marks on such a poor fake. 
I hope this helps.  Again, experience is the best way to tell fakes.  Go to every major coin show you can. 
David Kaplan 
 

Betreff:             Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
     Datum:             Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:31:11 +0000 
       Von:             Paul <Paul@galatacoins.demon.co.uk> 
        An:             Dave Welsh <dwelsh@deltanet.com> 
        CC:             DKaplan888@aol.com, moneta-l@onelist.com 

I have e-mailed "razan" to tell him that his coins are fakes. They are not even very good fakes. 
We say 'nine-bob notes'  instead of three dollars, but I guess that the concept is the same. 
Paul Withers 
Galata 
The Old White Lion 
Market Street, 
LLANFYLLIN 
Powys SY22 5BX 
Wales 
UK 
 

Betreff:         Re: [Moneta-L] Fakes on e-Bay 
 Datum:         Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:54:27 -0700 
    Von:         "Al DeCrescenzo" <alde@tscnet.com> 
    An:         <DKaplan888@aol.com>, <moneta-l@onelist.com> 

 David, 
Thanks for pointing out the problems with these coins. I have not seen the great number of coins that many on this list have. I would have bid on these coins if they were in my area of interest. I guess the moral of the story is bye from people you trust. 
Thanks, Al 
 
 

Betreff:             Re: [Moneta-L] More on the DIVA issues of Faustina 
     Datum:             Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:43:05 +1000 
       Von:             Walter Holt <numismo@ozemail.com.au> 
        An:             "'Moneta-L'" <Moneta-L@onelist.com> 

Dear List, 
Following on this same thread I have been thinking about how best to describe and illustrate what is meant by 'style'. Not an easy task but I think I have come up with something. Imagine your favourite movie star (rock star/royal/etc.). You probably have a 
picture of that person in your mind which allows you to recognise that person in whatever role they play. Now imagine going to Madame Tussaud's waxworks (or going to see an impersonator), for example, and seeing that same personality.  The modelled 
images are very accurate and often quite life-like . . . BUT not the same. They lack that character, that 'style' that goes with them. The features are there but there is something just not quite right. This is one way to illustrate what is meant. To me, these portraits of the early to middle Imperial times are like familiar friends. I like to think that I can recognise virtually anyone from the late Republic to around the time just before Diocletian. There are a couple of more difficult ones, of course, but for the most part these are very familiar, having seen tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of coins in almost twenty years of collecting. 
This is where experience come into play. I know that this coin does not show Faustina the way she should look. As do a great many more in this fine group. None of Faustina's feature gel with me. Her eye, her nose, her jaw-line, her cheek area, her neck, her pose, her brow and her lettering - all combine to shout 'something is wrong here'. And then there is the huge bulbous head on the reverse figure and her rather amateurishly rendered pose and proportions (NB - by amateurishly, I mean compared to the Roman style, not the work of this modern celator, whose work I do find attractive - for a modern piece). As for your piece, John, I believe that it is from the same dies. 
As another, possibly less appropriate example, compare the 'lifetime' issues of the Alexander Tetradrachms to some of the later ones issued under his successors and later again issued by various autonomous cities. Both are Alexander Tet's, but you can 
see that there is a difference in style between the two. Even though both are ancient there are similarities and differences. Differences that were not or could not be accurately captured by the later celators. And the same with modern copies. 
Which leads into the similarly unsettling coin offered by the same vendor as the Faustina. Whilst the coin is attractive in its own right and has the features of an 'Alexander' - it simply is not an ancient Alexander. 
The little things, the tiny subtleties that make the greatest of differences is what wholly determines the overall style and character of the coins. There may be other 'warning signs' to spark the attention of the observer but when taken altogether these little things add up to a whole lot of YUK! with all the flashing lights and whistles that go with it. 
The great Dennis Kroh, of Empire Coins, has given a talk on this subject, information about which is available on his site. It is a good read from a highly credentialed and respected numismatist. I am sure that getting this video of his will put people a step 
closer to being able to more clearly understand ancients and therefore the copies made of them. 

My best to all, 

Walter C. Holt 
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~numismo 
M.R.Roberts' Wynyard Coin Centre 
7 Hunter Arcade 
Sydney, NSW 2000 
Australia 
 
 

Betreff:             Re: [Moneta-L] More on the DIVA issues of Faustina 
     Datum:             Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:14:51 -0400 
       Von:             Kevin Barry <kbarry@bitsofhistory.com> 
        CC:             "'Moneta-L'" <Moneta-L@onelist.com> 

Fellow Listers, 
Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the discussion. IMHO, one of the hardest areas for forgers to get right is drapery. As any beginning art student can tell you it is very difficult to get cloth to fall just right when trying to capture it on paper or canvas. 
The Romans (and most certainly Greeks) were masters at catching the subtle way cloth falls over the human body. And it seems that many forgers are unable to capture drapery in quite the same way, often resorting to an exagerated style. The Faustina and Alexander 4dr are examples where (in my opinion) the drapery is grossly exagerated. 
Regards, 
Kevin 
 

Betreff:             Re: [Moneta-L] More on the DIVA issues of Faustina 
     Datum:             Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:05:22 -0500 
       Von:             "Bill Puetz" <bpuetz@msn.com> 
         An:             "Kevin Barry" <kbarry@bitsofhistory.com> 
        CC:             "'Moneta-L'" <Moneta-L@onelist.com> 

I agree with your comments on the drapery.  Speaking on Roman pieces, I have found that even when the bodies and/or limbs are out of proportion, the drapery appears to have a natural flowing quality. 
This does bring up another area where modern die-cutters miss the boat, I think.  The proportions of the limbs and torso tend to be better on modern copies than they do on the ancients.  If you look at a number of genuine pieces side-by-side with some of Slavej or his school, you will immediately notice that the genuine figures have sort of a stick-figure appearance, with mis-proportioned forearms and thighs, and shorter than normal torsos.  The modern copies, on the other hand, generally have good proportions throughout the torso and limbs.  I guess their natural artistic talent prevents them from copying bad proportions. 
Of course, as with all areas of fake analysis this is a generalization that does not always apply.  It does show up frequently enough to bear watching, though.  It is, however, not enough to condemn a coin on -- the Roman did sometimes get it right, whether by design or by accident. 
Bill 

Matt wrote to Moneta-L 

>   So if it is not casting bubbles but rather corrosion, does anyone have 
>an image of a fake with casting bubbles? 

I believe this questions is relevent to more than just Moneta-L, so I am cross-posting this to Numism-l as well. 
The problem with cast fakes is that not all show casting bubbles (it depends on the method used to caste the coin, the quality of the original molding, and the pressue at which it is caste) and other than on the very crudest of fakes, they are almost microscopic features. I have posted to my website a greatly enlarged image of a rather average modern cast fake of a Galba denarius.  The image can be seen at : http://www.calgarycoin.com/fake01.jpg  (note that this is a 66.5 k image).

It appears to have been cast by the lost wax-method, with the obverse and reverse waxes molded separately, and put togeather before the final casting.  Below the main image, on the left, is a close-up of the edge of the coin that clearly shows the joint between the two half of the wax (this line extends all the way around the coin). On a better quality fake this line would have been removed from the wax before the final casting. At the bottom right, is a close up of the bottom of the reverse, with two casting bubbles visible (one slightly to the right of center and another a little farther to the left).  Remember that the actual coin is only 16.5 mm across and in the hand, without magnification, you would not see these bubbles easily. To give some idea of scale, the reduced size copy of the image at the very bottom will appear as about double actual size on most moniters.This coin was clearly intended for the tourist market and not to fool collectors. 

Robert Kokotailo 
Calgary Coin and Antique Gallery 
WEB SITE : http://www.calgarycoin.com 
 

Betreff: Re: [Moneta-L] Cast Fake?? 
 Datum: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:24:53 -0400 
     Von: "Charlie Karukstis" <charlie@charliek.com> 
       An: <Moneta-L@onelist.com> 

Filed edge and bubbles in the field - not encouraging.  Can't tell much more from the image, however. 
__________________________________________ 
Charlie Karukstis 
charlie@charliek.com 

> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Kevin Barry [mailto:kbarry@bitsofhistory.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 16, 1999 11:11 PM 
> To: Moneta-L@onelist.com 
> Subject: [Moneta-L] Cast Fake?? 
> 
> From: Kevin Barry <kbarry@bitsofhistory.com> 
> 
> Hi All, 
> Something about this one just doesn't look right. 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=105070691
> Any other opinions? 
> Regards, 
> Kevin 
 

Betreff:  Re: [Moneta-L] Cast Fake?? 
      Datum: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:59:22 -0700 
        Von:  William Peters <starlord@earthlink.net> 
          An:  Moneta-L@onelist.com 

What's with the three day return and why do they subtract the shipping, handling and insurance.  If someone sell's a bum coin, shouldn't they refund everything and eat the loss? The typical, "I don't know anything about this coin routine".  Don't even mention Nero, which as an amature I can see.  Be curious to see what they tell you? 
William 
 

Betreff:  Re: [Moneta-L] Cast Fake?? 
 Datum:  Sun, 16 May 1999 23:27:21 -0400 
     Von: Kevin Barry <kbarry@bitsofhistory.com> 
      An: Moneta-L@onelist.com 

Thanks Charlie. That pretty much agrees with my assessment. I emailed theseller to see if I could get a better image and more info. 
Regards, 
Kevin